The weird thing about criticism towards your country.

"Anon" (tjsielsistneb) 04/05/2015 at 23:59 • Filed to: None

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I feel like living in a country is like having a little brother you complain about. You can talk shit about it all day but as soon as someone that's not from your country says something you get upset, like "the only one who can talk shit about my country is me!" I think it's because if it's someone from your country you feel like they understand what it's like to live there and the lifestyle, so they have a right to complain. If someone from another country says something it just seems to be malicious bashing.

CB > Anon 04/06/2015 at 00:05

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I agree, although only if the person doesn't have valid claims. If a person says "lol Canda sux u liv n iglos", then I don't think they have merit. If a person goes "Canada is pretty good, but your track record with Aboriginals is awful", then yeah, they've got a point.

Also, fuck people who think their country is perfect. I believe patriotism is loving your country and knowing its faults, rather than ignoring the things that are wrong with it.

Flavien Vidal > Anon 04/06/2015 at 00:08

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It's particulary annoying when americans and the US are concerned really.

I'm french, and couldn't be happier to bash my country with people from other nations. It's fun and often deserved.

But with americans, patriotism is so strong that if you're "a foreigner" you better not dare "hate" on america!! It doesn't matter if you have lived for many years in this said country and if this said country is actually made of said foreigners :)

It's quite annoying, especially considering how the US' behavior affects the rest of the world and how everyone in the world is concerned one way or another by US politics. Being told to "mind your won country's business" and "stop hating" as soon as you dare criticising the most powerful country in the world is absolutly freaking ridiculous.

Did I mention that the only thing I "hate" in all this is blind patriotism?? :)

desertdog5051 > Flavien Vidal 04/06/2015 at 00:25

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Interesting take on the US from a European. I acknowledge your opinion. I know it will not make much difference to the country as a whole, but it enables me to broaden my knowledge of opinion from others. Thanks.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > Flavien Vidal 04/06/2015 at 00:30

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first thought was "Oi, this mother******* French guy is bashing my country"

Second thought was "Holy shit the author was right..."

LostPuppySyndrome > Anon 04/06/2015 at 00:48

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You just described everyone from Winnipeg.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > CB 04/06/2015 at 00:55

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to be fair on Canada, I can't think of a single nation that has a good track record with native or aboriginal peoples.

CB > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 04/06/2015 at 00:59

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But we have shipped people north in order to make sovereignty claims and our prime minister does not see the large amount of missing and murdered Aboriginal women as a big issue. So although other countries may have also screwed up, it doesn't excuse the fact that we fucked up hard. This isn't even bringing up the residential schools, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Wheelerguy > Anon 04/06/2015 at 01:00

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As a Filipino, I feel this.

Flavien Vidal > CB 04/06/2015 at 01:28

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Well, the US and Japanese internment camps are pretty much from the same kind of "can". Same thing goes for france and the tortures in Algeria... All countries have this kind of stuff, it's part of their history, as dark of a part it is. It's also still ignored by our politicians.

Now being defensive on it, or making it sound less of a crime than it really is, just because of idiotic patriotism, now THAT is a problem.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > CB 04/06/2015 at 01:34

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no it doesn't make it allright, but in the context of the post, there aren't any nations that I can think of that can sit on a high horse and say they always treated their native people with respect and didn't at some point try to drive them out, de-home them or 'integrate them for their own good'.

Axial > Flavien Vidal 04/06/2015 at 01:39

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That's an interesting view, though from where I sit it's usually ignorant Euro rabble vs. ignorant US rabble. I believe there is an applicable analogue to the Special Olympics floating around on the interbutts.

Flavien Vidal > Axial 04/06/2015 at 01:52

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After many years living in the US and many years as a "professionnal stubborned internet commenter", it's very hard to argue about anything when it comes to the US. The "Love it or leave it" state of mind is unfortunatly very present when it comes to the US... Sad really as I really enjoyed my years in the states. This mentality played unfortunatly a big part in what drove me away (Being an international business and then a political science major, discussions about the US national and international policies occured daily).

Over the years I've noticed this behavior is present in all layers of the US society and with people of all political spectrums. I have never seen that anywhere else in the world, though Japan, where I live right now, is , to a lesser extent, similar in many ways.

E. Julius > Anon 04/06/2015 at 02:55

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In my experience here in Europe, both as someone living in another country and exposed to people talking about my own country, I've found that unless somebody has lived in a country for a looooong time, they're not qualified to talk about maybe 80% of what comprises a country's culture and values. Coming to understand a different culture is such an incredibly difficult and complex process that unless you've really immersed yourself in some way, it's just a complaint about what the person in question has had a difficult time with.

I was sitting in class Saturday morning listening a Spanish student talk about how terrible American individualism is. He kept saying "why would America be like that, why doesn't anybody help each other?"

Clearly comments like that, though rooted in an element of truth, make little sense as a criticism of another culture. First, the statement is flat out wrong— it's not like individualism means you give zero fucks about everybody else and nobody helps anybody. Second, this sort of criticism fails to take into account the relativistic elements of culture.

I'm sure in a more collectivistic culture like Spain, neighbors and communities are much closer and lend each other a hand more often, but whether that makes for a good or bad experience depends so much on a person's background. To a highly individualistic American, the expectation to dedicate comparatively more time and resources to your family and community could feel repressive, so it's a bit silly to claim that this (or most) element(s) of a culture are universally good or bad.

By contrast, if somebody has lived in the US (or another country) for some time and has really come to understand why a certain aspect of a culture exists, then the criticism makes much more sense. Of course on another issues (foreign policy for example) that have a much broader effect on the world and are less rooted in murky cultural values, it's possible for people to have a well formed opinion and in this case debate should be welcomed.

Ultimately, I think what you're saying is right in many ways, because most of the stuff most people say about other countries is coming from a position of ignorance. Of course, in a real life encounter with this, it's an opportunity to discuss the situation and learn from each other, but it's a very line between improving a person's understanding of a situation and coming off as a jingoistic asshole.

Axial > Flavien Vidal 04/06/2015 at 03:17

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Sounds like you were with the wrong crowds. I don't know how old you are, but my generation (born 1990) seems to be plenty open to discussion about what the USA does or does not do right, even with foreigners.

What grinds my gears, though, are weak arguments, and most of them are pretty damn weak, usually because they are unwilling acknowledge the history behind them. You bring it up, and they plug their ears going "yeah, well, that doesn't excuse the present." It doesn't, but it makes you look like an idiot for failing to acknowledge the benefits your non-US country receives because of the thing you are criticizing and how the response to them feeds back into what the US does.

"You" being proverbial and not you you.

E. Julius > Flavien Vidal 04/06/2015 at 03:26

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Do you feel that your global experience puts you in a fairly special position though? Being exposed to so many other countries and cultures is probably the best way to become more openminded about other cultures, and the best way to learn to discuss these things in a civil way with people from other places. I agree that what you describe is often the case for Americans, but the vast majority of Americans have never had the opportunity to leave the country. This means most haven't really had many experiences that would make them reflect on their own culture and evaluate what's truly good and bad about it.

Living here in France for seven months, I've definitely come across things that I like and don't like, and things that I've found superior or inferior to their counterparts in the US. It's given me a broader perspective on my own country, and given me an opportunity to reflect on what my country means to me. I'd like to think that it's made me more open to hearing criticism and discussing it, as opposed to having a knee-jerk reaction against the opinion of a "foreigner" as well. I'm not saying that a lack of this experience among the population as a whole is the root of this problem, but I think it does contribute substantially. Unfortunately the American geographic situation is such that having these experiences are quite a privilege, and even for Europeans the type of experience that you've had seems exceptional as well.

I haven't met enough people to be able to know this myself, but would you say that your mindset —as opposed to what's been described as the typical American mindset—is more prevalent in Europe as a whole? Or is your willingness to accept criticism about your country and culture a result of your own highly privileged experience?

In the end though, maybe you're right. Maybe if I wasn't an American I wouldn't feel compelled to continue this discussion. Maybe I would've simply joined in on the "bashing" (because I'm sure you've encountered it enough that it is deserved). As it stands now though, if it seems that the person I'm talking to is capable of holding a reasonable discussion, I can't hear comments about my own culture without engaging them on the topic. I at least feel compelled to understand what sort of facts the other individual has and what sort of perspective they bring to the situation. Is that enough to lump me in with the rest of the Americans who can't take a shot at their own country from somebody with different experiences?

Flavien Vidal > E. Julius 04/06/2015 at 06:21

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I think my experience makes me naturally compare with what I know, yes... I'm not sure I would call it "fairly special" or anything, but being one of those "foreigner" and having lived for years in certain specific countries definitly play a role.

I had overall a relative desappointment of what the life in the US was and after 5 years in the states and left kind of fed up. I would say that the overall patriotism is what made me tired of living there... And keep in mind I was living in some of the most liberal cities of the country (SF and Seattle). And to answer your question, about Europe, yes, the state of mind is very different in Europe. Patriotism is pretty much non-existant except during football games (soccer) :)

For someone who has never grown up with a constant praising of the country he lives in, it's kind of hard to deal with. I never had that feeling in Canada for exemple, whether in Vancouver or in Montreal.

Just a little anecdote that sums up my feeling about the US. While I was living and working in Montreal, I had to go to NY state to regulary go pick some stuff at a warehouse for my company. I was going there once every two weeks. Taking care of the warehouse was the nicest couple of old people I knew... They were REALLY nice, offering me to stay eat with them everytime I was going there... etc. Just really nice. At one point while we were eating, a few weeks before I had to leave to Japan, we watched TV about the Ferguson riots that were starting to occur. And in the middle of diner, with the approbatorry knocking of his wife, the REALLY nice guy started to go on about those blacks people who had the luck to live in this free country and how they are just a gang of thugs and then they went about Obama and his politics they obiviously didn't agree with...

This summed up my years in the US perfectly... So many nice people everywhere... Then you start talking politics. :)

I'm very fine with people who are patriotic, as long as they can also see all the flaws of their own country and what has to change. For me blind patriotism is WAY too present in the US to make the country enjoyable to live in.

And I tend to agree with you on the lack of travelling and expreience outside of their country is the main source of this idiotic type of national pride. The same phenomenon can be seen with Japanese. An island that is pretty much cut of anything that goes on outside of their country (national "news" are laughable here) and a country where most of the population spend its days working real hard and then watching people commenting local news and cat videos all day long on TV (that and cooking programs with crazy zooms on the food they are eating, followed by a guy screaming "oiiiiichi" right after he ate the said food... I firmly believe that Japanese TV is worse than american TV and that means a lot...). Japanese travel a lot but they never see the countries they visit. The total incapacity of 99% of the population to speak anything else other than Japanese, make them travel in tours, with a guide showing them the absolute most touristic stuff you can imagine. So they can come back from 2 weeks in France without knowing what France is other than the Louvre, Versailles and the Mont St Michel...

They are also very patriotic but not as loud about it as american which makes it a lot more bearable for a godless expatriated french like me :)

To conclude, with that and the fact that being french essentially means criticizing everything that's around you, whether it's your own country or another, makes the whole process of dealing with americans all day long very hard for me :)

Flavien Vidal > Axial 04/06/2015 at 06:39

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I feel that the younger you are, the less you have to deal with this... I'm gonna be 31 in a couple of months, so I'm not that old.

And yes "non-US countries" receive benefits from the US and the way it is (Canada's first economic partner for exemple. That plays a big role in what Canada is today, or all the trade markets with Europe, Nasa or extremely weathy universities researches... etc etc etc). But don't forget about all the shit people have to deal with daily outside of the US because of the US. (Gun smuggling into Mexico, war in Irak, military bases 60 years after WW2 in Japan or Germany, the Jersey Shore, Adam Sandler movies... etc etc etc). This can't really be ignored either, despite all the good things that the US creates too...

Dealing with people that ignore this on a daily basis and with some of them who actually feel superior because of where they are born... Oh damn, that's hard to deal with lol